The ethos that men need fairer representation in divorce and family law cases is the driving force and catalyst behind the work of Barbara Johnson-Stern, partner and head of operations in Cordell & Cordell’s London office. Cordell & Cordell specialises in the fair legal representation of men in divorce and family law. Here Barbara talks to Lawyer Monthly all about the matter, homing in on some big questions we should be posing.
When it comes to divorce and family law, an unfortunate but very significant stereotypical view of men has historically existed and continues to play a role in family and divorce disputes, sometimes affecting their outcomes.
A lawyer with extensive experience of representing men and fighting their cause in divorce and family law cases, we interview Barbara to explore her perspective on fighting for a level legal playing field for men, as well as any obstacles and challenges she faces whilst battling for their legal representation.
1.) In your experience, how are men stereotyped in divorce proceedings and how does this perception impact settlements?
Men are stereotyped as not being present or interested in their children’s lives. They are also stereotyped based on the perception that their financial needs are secondary to those of their partners and that their finances will magically recover without ramifications. They are seen as being more resilient and having more access to resources that their partners don’t.
I also think there are lots of stereotypes about children needing parents to be home, and there’s an idea that that should be the mother and the mother does not have to contribute financially to the family. I feel that these stereotypes are outdated and lend themselves to the sense of entitlement that women can have during the divorce process. I think these stereotypes are so entrenched in male communities that men lack optimism and come to the table thinking that it is a lost cause.
2.) Do you feel women have a sense of entitlement in divorce cases?
This isn’t the case with all women, but in my experience, women sometimes come to the table thinking that the only thing that will change in their lives is that their husband is no longer in it.
They come to proceedings thinking they are entitled to a level of support, regardless of practicality; their husbands are holed up in a basement apartment while they maintain their standard of living and it is supported.
3.) What are your views on support for women getting a divorce vs support for men?
I think there should be no difference in how we treat the wage earner and the non-wage-earning spouse. I think the two are currently treated very differently. Maintenance awards tend to be outdated. Regardless of the sex, the dependency that built up during the course of the marriage should be the bigger factor, whether that is experienced by a male or a female.
4.) Could you discuss the unspoken rule that women feel exists regarding the family home, children, etc. when it comes to divorce?
I’m not sure it is unspoken. Many women may say outright that the family home should go to them. Don’t sell it. Their lifestyle should remain the same in their opinion. They disguise it in the framework that they are the mother, children should not be disrupted, this is their home. I am the mother. There is an expectation that these women can meet the needs of their children and that the needs of the children should be the same as their own. You hear this coming from lawyers and social services. It makes men feel defeated. You need to confront people putting forward those outdated notions and you sometimes have to remind the bench that those notions are outdated.
5.) In your experience, what is the norm when it comes to men paying long-term spousal maintenance to their ex-wives following a divorce?
There is no norm. They find that there is an expectation that maintenance will be paid. That a higher-earning spouse will pay a lower-earning spouse tends to be the norm but there is no consistency. It is based on needs. Generally, our maintenances seem to be for what is appropriate. I can only count on one hand the number of times a woman has come to the table and not mentioned maintenance and I’ve been doing this for a long time. Men are entitled to the same things in terms of maintenance as women are if they are the lower earner.
6.) Is it often assumed that men will leave the family home when a divorce is sought?
It is assumed by both men and women. It’s like they pack their bags and head to the hotel. Our job as lawyers who represent men is that we have to get people to think hard to get past the notions ingrained in them. Clients call months after they’ve left the home and they’ve put themselves at a disadvantage in their own cases. There are, however, sometimes very good reasons for people to be out of the house during the marriage. Women do not like being in the same house as men when they are divorcing and it becomes untenable for them. But the best thing for the man’s case is for him not to leave.
7.) What obstacles are faced by men who are fighting cases against female spouses?
The pressures that they put on themselves, still seeing themselves as their value to a family, is finances. They create obstacles in their failure to understand or believe that they have a place in their children’s lives. They face obstacles in people who are in the system. We use a lot of experts that are child-related and they come to the table with the stereotypical notions that mothers are more important and are better at raising the children. Men face those obstacles. They face expectations that they will financially recover. They face obstacles by openly saying that they want to be with their children. It’s so much easier for people to think negatively about a father than a mother. We are not giving enough thought to how we’re thinking of domestic violence and its traction in divorce cases. And after the months of waiting and the thousands spent on legal fees, many men can no longer afford to litigate and the UK has legal aid but you can only get legal aid if you allege domestic violence. Men are victims of domestic violence every day, whether it is physical abuse or emotional abuse. We don’t really recognise it.
8.) Where do you see the future in terms of the stereotypes of men when it comes to divorce and family law cases?
I think we are going to eliminate and eradicate them case by case. Eight years ago, you got every other weekend and you were happy about it. The more we shine a light on these things and work and confront these stereotypes, the better we’ll be. The more they hear that from us, the more it will change. We’re trending in the right direction. We’ll find ourselves in a place where we have made real progress.
9.) Where would you like to see the legal landscape shift to in the next 2–4 years with regards to men in divorce and child custody hearings?
I would no longer like there to be shock and awe when it comes to men getting custody. I would like maintenance to be decided by the choices in the marriage rather than the stereotype of women automatically getting the finances. Marriage shouldn’t be seen as a stepping stone. We need to move towards more appropriate, transitional maintenance awards. We should be able to accept that there are as many bad mums out there as bad dads. It shouldn’t be an uphill battle.
