Sally Penni, Barrister and Founder of Women in the Law UK is a busy woman and if you ever have the opportunity to meet her, or listen to one of her talks or podcasts, you will immediately be fixated; a wonderful storyteller and a charismatic role model, her passion for the legal sector is evident.
We managed to get the opportunity to speak to her, where she tells us her motivation behind founding Women in the Law UK, and how both men and women need to work to together to help the legal sector progress, become more diverse and embrace more BAME lawyers.
In general, I use humour and irony to deflect many instances of sexism.
Can you share an instance when you experienced sexism in the legal sphere, and how you tackled it?
Most are too sensitive to share. A recent complex criminal case, though, involved eight counsel: myself and seven men. One of them, a junior tenant, asked very gently if I was on the case because, ‘This one is a bit complex for you girls.’
My response was that, ‘These days they let us out of the kitchen to have jobs and take on complex cases.’ My client was the only person with a decent result in that case. Everyone laughed.
In general, I use humour and irony to deflect many instances of sexism.
Can you share an instance when you experienced bias, and/ or racism in the legal sphere, and how you tackled it?
I can’t pinpoint any of these. I suspect there may have been many instances of unconscious bias but it’s what one learns from one’s experiences that’s important. I have a positive, optimistic outlook on life.
Overcoming stereotypes: What is your nugget of advice for those from BAME backgrounds on overcoming
stereotypes and implicit bias towards them?
There’s not much that I can recommend, really, other than not going everywhere with a chip on your shoulder.
Why do you think those from BAME backgrounds may not consider or delve into the legal industry? What can be done to change these predisposed notions?
I don’t agree that race, in itself, is holding people back from applying to enter the law, although social class still plays a role across the board. There are now many people from BAME backgrounds who enter the law but, like with gender, there are insufficient numbers making it to senior leadership roles.
The issue now is not necessarily how to attract applications but, rather, how to improve retention and progression to partnership and, in my own sector, how to get more BAME QCs and more BAME judges.
At a practical level, more scholarships would help those who cannot afford entry into the profession.
What do you think is key to unlocking the legal sector, i.e., what can be done to make the industry more accessible?
This needs to be tackled at grassroots, in primary and secondary schools – getting speakers in early to talk to children about the rewards of a career in the law. Also, we need more visible role models: you can’t be what you don’t see.
I spent International Women’s Day at Wythenshawe Forum in Greater Manchester, giving a speech to a room full of schoolgirls from backgrounds that would not traditionally be expected to produce many aspiring lawyers.
Wythenshawe used to be best-known for being Europe’s largest council estate and it is important for these children to understand that their backgrounds do not have to define their futures. For example, Julian Knowles QC (who, as a barrister, worked on some of the highest profile criminal cases of the last 20 years and was recently appointed a Justice of the High Court) grew up in a similar area.
At a practical level, more scholarships would help those who cannot afford entry into the profession.
What motivates you to keep going and progressing, in the legal sector?
What motivates me is my three wonderful children, who tolerate me writing academic books, lecturing on ethics and taking on non-executive director roles. I am also motivated by senior role models like Lady Hale, Baroness Kennedy and Dame Linda Dobbs who came before me and are still helping. Male role models and sponsors have also inspired me and continue to do so.
I hope that in some small way, through being a founder of Women in the Law UK (www.womeninthelawuk. com), and by pursuing my passion for diversity of gender, race and thought, I may be empowering women to remain in the profession and progress into senior legal roles. I hope I am also equipping men to be able to talk openly about the issues that remain in the profession.
We need male champions and, to drive change, we need our male colleagues to engage with us and not feel isolated.
Can you share the reason for founding Women in the Law? What have you achieved so far and what is on the horizon for 2019?
There were several reasons for founding Women in the Law UK, chief among which was to create a professional organisation for both women and men working in the legal profession. We have three aims: to encourage and inspire the next generation of leaders in the law; to allow junior and senior people to learn from each other, and to connect the law and business.
Barristers can meet solicitors through Women in the Law UK and solicitors can meet other solicitors and business people and help fulfil their business development requirements. So, in short, I founded it to try to:
- Encourage, inspire and connect women through professional development, education and training.
- Equip men and women with information so they have a seat at the table and remain in the profession.
- Showcase the unsung heroes in law: those who mentor quietly, fundraise or just go about their business with decency, without shouting about it.
- To raise the profile of gender diversity issues with our male colleagues.
We need male champions and, to drive change, we need our male colleagues to engage with us and not feel isolated. As a mother of two sons, it’s important to me to engage with men. In my view, men and women are like left and right, and we need both hands to drive change.
What three words describe your life in law?
Tenacity - remaining in law.
Positivity.
Intelligence.
…oh, and sheer hard work.
An inspiring quote for inspiring female lawyers?
I have several quotes:
‘This above all: to thine own self be true.’ (Shakespeare: Hamlet)
‘Be yourself but be your best self.’
‘The law is a marathon not a sprint.’
‘Have a vision or purpose and bring others with you on your journey.’
‘Try to give back to those coming behind you.’
‘Collaborate with others where possible.’
Whatever your ambitions, these are some of the values I live by. I wish those in the profession a long and happy career.
About Women in the Law UK
Women in the Law UK was founded by the award-winning barrister Sally Penni and exists to support and encourage gender diversity in the legal profession. The not-for-profit organisation has more than 700 members and hosts regular events to promote its message and raise money for a range of charitable causes.
Based in Manchester, the home of the Pankhursts, Women in the Law UK has events planned around the country for the remainder of 2019 and into 2020. Members and ambassadors are drawn from a broad range of fields and, in addition to its events, it carries out research into reasons why women leave the profession and operates a mentoring programme to provide female solicitors and barristers with the support they need to remain and thrive within legal practice over the long term.
For Further Information
Sally Penni
Founder and chair, Women in the Law UK
Practising Barrister at Law: crime and
employment
(Kenworthy’s Chambers, Manchester)
Co-author, Cyber Security Law (Bloomsbury)
Vice Chair, Association of Women Barristers
Non-executive director
FRSA
Web: https://womeninthelawuk.com/
Email: womeninthelawuk@gmail.com
Twitter: @womeninthelawuk @sallypenni1 #womeninthelawuk
